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| | Pursuant to requests and/or suggestions by several members of the c2 community,I feel oblidged to clarify that:
1) This system is designed for High Value portfolios and despite the fact that I am usually margined at 30% of the portfolio value ,if someone wishes to enjoy the benefits of law drawdown,and sufficient diversification, I would not recommend to apply the system to portfolios of less than 500k.
2) I therefore believe my pricing to be very modest,as it would come (currently) to a total of 24000 p.a.(ie 2.4% of a standard portfolio).Probably, my charges shall be raised after 90 days of life of the system in c2.The system runs perfectly for over 8 years, with excellent results,under different market conditions.
3) Based on past performance,(which of course is not indicative of future results), I expect annualized profits to exceed 240%,whilst my drawdown should be kept under 20%.Taking this under consideration, my current fees represent only 1% of expected annual profits.
4) Please notice that the submitted trades are not of "scalping" characteristics, nor does the system generate thousands of trades to make the brokers happy,and the clients broke.Still, it does not trade illiquid markets,so the displayed trades do not run the perils of huge slippage or "phantasy" fills.
For all those who would not be in position to dedicate large capital in futures trading,I would recommend to take a look at my other (20k) system "Aristoteles", which is based on a similar philosophy, with equally (if not better) nice results, and more...trading fascination. |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Index ( C2 Score: 655 ) |
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| When: | 11/08/09 (18:43) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/07/09 (7:14) Pursuant to requests and/or suggestions by several members of the c2 community,I feel oblidged to clarify that:
1) This system is designed for High Value portfolios and despite the fact that I am usually margined at 30% of the portfolio value ,if someone wishes to enjoy the benefits of law drawdown,and sufficient diversification, I would not recommend to apply the system to portfolios of less than 500k....
See entire
the system may work fine.
But: "The system runs perfectly for over 8 years, with excellent results,under different market conditions. " is pretty much what most C2 vendors think and say about their system(s). After all, do you think vendors come here to pay near $200 a year thinking their system does NOT work?
My guess is, you are referring to an 8 year backtest. Which are valueless without massive, independent walkforward testing. AND with solid Sharpe/Sortino type, Profit Factor, drawdown analysis. Appearance means nothing without these.
Until vetted by C2, potential subs cannot rely on any vendor claim. This place is all about independent auditing and statistics...
Your system is no more credible or reliable until it gets thorough auditing. Few subs will subscribe until you have a number of months of very good performance with very good stats. At your prices, I doubt anyone would be interested. At $2000 a month, you would need 100% annual return, just for a $24,000 account to BREAK EVEN. And that is like much more than the average C2 person has as an account considerably smaller.
That is the reality of C2. And better understanding of why you are complaining about not getting enough views. |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Financial Scientist ( C2 Score: 770) |
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| When: | 11/08/09 (20:03) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/07/09 (7:14) Pursuant to requests and/or suggestions by several members of the c2 community,I feel oblidged to clarify that:
1) This system is designed for High Value portfolios and despite the fact that I am usually margined at 30% of the portfolio value ,if someone wishes to enjoy the benefits of law drawdown,and sufficient diversification, I would not recommend to apply the system to portfolios of less than 500k....
See entire
1,000k as a starting value? Did you read any of the suggestions when you opened your system? 50 -200 per month with a free trial is the sweet spot. |
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| | In response to post by Index of 11/08/09 (18:43) the system may work fine.
But: "The system runs perfectly for over 8 years, with excellent results,under different market conditions. " is pretty much what most C2 vendors think and say about their system(s). After all, do you think vendors come here to pay near $200 a year thinking their system does NOT work?
...
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Please notice that this system is NOT recommended for accounts of less than 500k.You may be right that I would not get any subscriptions,but,on the other hand..................you never know. |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | James Nelson ( C2 Score: 982) |
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| When: | 11/09/09 (8:38) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/09/09 (2:01) Please notice that this system is NOT recommended for accounts of less than 500k.You may be right that I would not get any subscriptions,but,on the other hand..................you never know.
You would be better off attracting a few lower income subs and limiting the total number of subs to around 10. Once you have a decent C2 track record you might be able to attract a $500K sub. How many high net worth subs would you expect for 1 system at $2000/month? I would say 1 or maybe 2. Otherwise I would be very concerned about scalable results.
Jim
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Index ( C2 Score: 655) |
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| When: | 11/09/09 (9:57) | |
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| | In response to post by Financial Scientist of 11/08/09 (20:03) 1,000k as a starting value? Did you read any of the suggestions when you opened your system? 50 -200 per month with a free trial is the sweet spot.
the other problem is, that a high net worth individual is usually much more savvy, and may not be in a hurry to be your "first" subscriber. There is no exclusivity or cachet in being a vendor without a following.
Getting SOME subs, at a reasonable price has a certain value by itself. They may talk you up. Or recommend you to someone (word of mouth). But when you start out high, with a quote that you will likely raise prices in 90 days, acts like a fire extinguisher to many people normally seen on C2.
But starting off at a high price, is going to prevent most people from even tracking you (such as in "My Analyst"), which is usually where a serious trader starts.
Again, the going wisdom seems to be that most people will not even sign up for a system less than 4-6 months old, and you are starting off by repelling people from even following your system, to build interest. One strategy, is to start off low, and then if you do well, progressively increasing prices to match performance. But it is not a guaranteed strategy. One serious drawdown, one bad review from your subscribers, making errors in judgement, or a number of other things can hose your reputation.
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| | In response to post by Index of 11/09/09 (9:57) the other problem is, that a high net worth individual is usually much more savvy, and may not be in a hurry to be your "first" subscriber. There is no exclusivity or cachet in being a vendor without a following....
See entire
Now, this is "constructive" conversation,and I honestly think I should consider some of your suggestions.However,let us not only focus on "Aristoteles Premium".In my opinion, "Aristoteles" is much better,more "exciting", and affordable.
Thank you for the suggestions. |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | James Nelson ( C2 Score: 982) |
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| When: | 11/09/09 (13:24) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/09/09 (10:21) Now, this is "constructive" conversation,and I honestly think I should consider some of your suggestions.However,let us not only focus on "Aristoteles Premium".In my opinion, "Aristoteles" is much better,more "exciting", and affordable....
See entire
yes, the same applies, $480/month is not attractive for a short timer, you will need a better record than you have to attract even 1 sub. So, I would expect a solid 2 months of excellent performance to generate some interest (1-5 subs) and 6 months to get some serious long-term subs. Lower the price to $120/month and it will be better, $60/month and you might get some now.
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| | In response to post by James Nelson of 11/09/09 (13:24) yes, the same applies, $480/month is not attractive for a short timer, you will need a better record than you have to attract even 1 sub. So, I would expect a solid 2 months of excellent performance to generate some interest (1-5 subs) and 6 months to get some serious long-term subs. Lower the price to $120/month and it will be better, $60/month and you might get some now....
See entire
If you are trading with $ 500,000 of real money in the forex, then I am surprised you even want any subscribers. I currently have some subscribers, but as my system gets better, I may just trade it myself and not bother with having subs. |
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| | In response to post by East Coast Technology of 11/09/09 (16:11) If you are trading with $ 500,000 of real money in the forex, then I am surprised you even want any subscribers. I curr...
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I do trade my system with real money, but I have started adding more money to my futures account to allow me to maximize my returns using more contracts over time. |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Index ( C2 Score: 655) |
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| When: | 11/09/09 (18:24) | |
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| | In response to post by East Coast Technology of 11/09/09 (16:11) If you are trading with $ 500,000 of real money in the forex, then I am surprised you even want any subscribers. I curr...
See entire
keep in mind - all systems have at least brief drawdowns - often SERIOUS. If a system actually works, then subscriber revenue can be an independent income source that diversifies the system inventor.
I suspect, of the few people who have actually working systems, that this fact, the interest in developing methods, and the enabling of others are among the strong reasons they do this. (Ignoring the concepts of fame and notoriety).
Also, most vendors start out with small trading accounts, and subscriptions is an independent source of raising funds. |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Science Trader ( C2 Score: 267) |
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| When: | 11/11/09 (14:53) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/07/09 (7:14) Pursuant to requests and/or suggestions by several members of the c2 community,I feel oblidged to clarify that:
1) This system is designed for High Value portfolios and despite the fact that I am usually margined at 30% of the portfolio value ,if someone wishes to enjoy the benefits of law drawdown,and sufficient diversification, I would not recommend to apply the system to portfolios of less than 500k....
See entire
If you indeed ran your system for the past 8 years with an annual return of 240%, you wouldn't need C2: At this rate, an initial investment of only $1000 would have compounded to $17,857,939. You would expect $42 million in profits for the coming year, and any fees you would make through C2 would likely be peanuts compared to your profits.
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| | In response to post by Science Trader of 11/11/09 (14:53) If you indeed ran your system for the past 8 years with an annual return of 240%, you wouldn't need C2: At this rate, an initial investment of only $1000 would have compounded to $17,857,939. You would expect $42 million in profits for the coming year, and any fees you would make through C2 would likely be peanuts compared to your profits....
See entire
Thank you for the mathematical contribution.Apparently there is some small mistake in your calculations,but this is not of importance.I understand your point,like everybody else in here.So,let me ask you:
1) How much do you think I trade with?
2) Did I mention somewhere that I die for subscribers? My pricing indicates exactly the opposite.
It is just a question of justice-You cannot expect to pay peanuts, when you want to make real money.Personally,I would not buy a system for 100-200$ per month,because: a) either it would not be good, b) or it would be traded by a whole crowd,so at the end of the day it would turn out to be unsuccesful.
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Financial Scientist ( C2 Score: 770) |
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| When: | 11/11/09 (16:18) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/11/09 (16:16) Thank you for the mathematical contribution.Apparently there is some small mistake in your calculations,but this is not of importance.I understand your point,like everybody else in here.So,let me ask you:
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You seriously overestimate the account levels here. You might have 1 in 300 with accounts that big linking to a C2 system. And when you can get the 299 accounts worth less than that, well, don't you see my point? |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Index ( C2 Score: 655) |
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| When: | 11/12/09 (15:04) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/11/09 (16:16) Thank you for the mathematical contribution.Apparently there is some small mistake in your calculations,but this is not of importance.I understand your point,like everybody else in here.So,let me ask you:
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See entire
"You cannot expect to pay peanuts, when you want to make real money.Personally,I would not buy a system for 100-200$ per month,because: a) either it would not be good, b) or it would be traded by a whole crowd,so at the end of the day it would turn out to be unsuccesful.
"
Pricing on C2 has NEVER indicated that high priced systems had any more value. And your personal preference is the opposite of what the traders and newbies on C2 do. In the same way, no one cares about an 8 year backtest that a new vendor ran or claimed; C2 is about audited returns with stats.
Hopefully over the next few months, you will realize that these people are trying to tell you that you are looking for green pasture, in the middle of the Sahara desert... Some of us have been here for years, and your approach is almost stereotypical of those who do not understand how C2 or similar ventures work,.
We are not being nasty, you are just being extremely unrealistic. Build a track record and become a valued contributor, instead of imagining you are CEO of the Ferrari company. One month means absolutely nothing. So far, you are building an image of a complete amateur who read an ad, and came onto C2 for very rapid wealth, and plans to spar with people who actually "get" C2.. That won't happen and if you do not disappear, you may also "get" it. This is not the Goldman-Sachs or Credit-Suisse website. |
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| | In response to post by Index of 11/12/09 (15:04) "You cannot expect to pay peanuts, when you want to make real money.Personally,I would not buy a system for 100-200$ per month,because: a) either it would not be good, b) or it would be traded by a whole crowd,so at the end of the day it would turn out to be unsuccesful.
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OK Mr Index (rating 87).It seems like I should take your word and use your experience in c2. As you may now see, I have rescaled the portfolio and decreased fees. Let's see what the comments will be now.... |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Financial Scientist ( C2 Score: 770) |
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| When: | 11/20/09 (13:34) | |
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| | In response to post by Panagiotis Kostopoulos of 11/20/09 (2:30) OK Mr Index (rating 87).It seems like I should take your word and use your experience in c2. As you may now see, I have ...
See entire
Excellent. Still a bit expensive, but way more in line; you should offer a longer free trial period to allow for weekends. |
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| Subject: | System Pricing |
| Posted by: | Kevin Davey ( C2 Score: 1000) |
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| When: | 11/20/09 (13:44) | |
| Systems: | 3 Pair Forex, Congress ES, ETF Basket, Gen 2 - Mini S&P Only, Gen 3 - Mini S&P Only, KJ Mini Action, KJ Mini SP, KJ Price Action, Relative ETF, SFE, Trender, Gen 1 - Mini S&P Only (Closed), KJ Test 1 (closed), Master Mini S&P, Mighty Mini S&P, Mini N&R, No Trades Since Jan 08, Notable Nasdaq Mini |
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| | In response to post by Financial Scientist of 11/20/09 (13:34) Excellent. Still a bit expensive, but way more in line; you should offer a longer free trial period to allow for weekends.
Panos -
Don't even worry about pricing yet. Worry about your track record. Once that is solid, you'll have no trouble attracting subscribers, at almost any price, with or without free trials, discounts, charge only if profitable, or any other scheme.
The key is PERFORMANCE. |
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| | In response to post by Kevin Davey of 11/20/09 (13:44) Panos -
Don't even worry about pricing yet. Worry about your track record. Once that is solid, you'll have no trouble attracting subscribers, at almost any price, with or without free trials, discounts, charge only if profitable, or any other scheme....
See entire
Hello again Kevin,
I think the system's performance after the first 90 days in C2 justifies the subscription fee. |
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