Forum: Collective2 Suggestions, Feedback, Questions

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7/31/14 (6:08)Antonio Porsia1Parcours New systems lauch
7/30/14 (18:09)Adrienne Demarco1you need to read the statisics !!!!
7/29/14 (9:33)Melissa Karty4C2 Phone?
7/28/14 (18:22)A. Nevado1Suggestion in closed trade mail
7/27/14 (7:16)John Richard1
7/26/14 (19:10)L A1Goldmetre
7/25/14 (19:41)Matthew Klein12System New Method - is not gold all that glitters
 
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Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/09/08 (22:33) 
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The TMG people are committing fraud on this site.

"Jerry Jenkins" and "George Wilson" in their My Analysts both suddenly added positive commentary about TMG 2 and TMG 2 Futures the same day. They also aim fire against Beau W's system. And of course, they comment about ZERO other systems.

I think you should suspend all TMG systems for 30 days, to send a message. This kind of behaviour should NOT be tolerated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MK, sometimes more needs to be done than just giving con artists a lecture

  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Jack R  New msg
 
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When:6/09/08 (22:48) 
 

In response to post by Index of 6/09/08 (22:33)


The TMG people are committing fraud on this site.

"Jerry Jenkins" and "George Wilso...

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This kind of thing could be a almost eliminated (casual fraud, anyway), if you had two levels of "subscriber", those that had merely registered, and those whose credit card details had been confirmed.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/09/08 (23:23) 
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In response to post by Jack R of 6/09/08 (22:48)

This kind of thing could be a almost eliminated (casual fraud, anyway), if you had two levels of "subscriber",...

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Give people a peephole, and they will try to drive a tank through it.

But if the punishment is a slap on the wrist, then there is no disincentive to stop.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:ironcito  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (2:23) 
 

In response to post by Jack R of 6/09/08 (22:48)

This kind of thing could be a almost eliminated (casual fraud, anyway), if you had two levels of "subscriber",...

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I agree with Jack in that it is better to prevent by technical means than to punish via human control. Maybe members who haven't payed for anything on C2 shouldn't be allowed to post public comments or otherwise influence the community, just look.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (9:15) 
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In response to post by ironcito of 6/10/08 (2:23)

I agree with Jack in that it is better to prevent by technical means than to punish via human control. Maybe members who...

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that would be nice, but I doubt subs would be required to registered. This has come up before, and that option was avoided.

Probably because it would reduce the # of people who would stick around.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Matthew Klein (Admin)  New msg
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When:6/10/08 (9:36) 
 

In response to post by Index of 6/10/08 (9:15)

that would be nice, but I doubt subs would be required to registered. This has come up before, and that option was avoi...

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I'm afraid that we disagree. When I look at those My Analyst pages you criticize, I say to myself, "Gee, there's a silly, masturbatory attempt at self-promotion." Then I try to calculate exactly how many poor people those pages are going to affect. I conclude that they will affect approximately -- just a round a number, here -- zero people.

The thing about bad self promotion is that it is obvious to just about everyone in the world that it is bad self promotion. It's meaningless. C2 Members are smart, and they will ignore people prattling about their own systems.

As I've said before (or perhaps I never said it explicitly, but I surely thought it quietly to myself), C2 isn't going to implement highly restrictive security in order to prevent people from participating on the site. We want more people to be active participants, not fewer. The idea behind the site (the collective in Collective2) is that collectively, the group of us will be able to distinguish truth from falsehood, good trading systems from bad.

Now, obviously, there are certain activities beyond the pale, which are forbidden: setting up "shill" accounts to praise your own system, for instance -- that's a no-no. Obvious attempts at doing this will be dealt with. But other than this really egregious stuff, C2 will not spend a lot of resources policing and monitoring the quality of people's statements. These speak for themselves, and can be judged easily by the C2 community, without any help from site administrators.

  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Eu New ( C2 Score: 972)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (10:25) 
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In response to post by Matthew Klein of 6/10/08 (9:36)

I'm afraid that we disagree. When I look at those My Analyst pages you criticize, I say to myself, "Gee, the...

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Matthew,
I think there exists simple solution in spirit of C2. How about adding small icon "Verified C2 member" or whatever word wrapping you will choose. In general it will mean that C2 has verified information about its member, i.e. credit card payment is enough third party verification. In the case it will be easy to separate fiction internet characters that have only IP address and real people who provide additional information about themself to C2. It won't violate privacy of any C2 member, but will give some info for thoughts about fiction "analysts"
Eu
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (11:09) 
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In response to post by Matthew Klein of 6/10/08 (9:36)

I'm afraid that we disagree. When I look at those My Analyst pages you criticize, I say to myself, "Gee, the...

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I definitely know the chilling effect that requiring credit card info would have C2. That is why I said above I did not think that would happen.

I say to myself, "Gee, there's a silly, masturbatory attempt at self-promotion." Then I try to calculate exactly how many poor people those pages are going to affect. I conclude that they will affect approximately -- just a round a number, here -- zero people.

The thing about bad self promotion is that it is obvious to just about everyone in the world that it is bad self promotion. It's meaningless. C2 Members are smart, and they will ignore people prattling about their own systems.


I cannot agree to this at all. You are just speculating, and not thinking this through Shills and Aliases is a huge problem on place like Ebay and Amazon. This has badly affected their reputation. Look what click fraud has done to the reputation of Google and Yahoo. Reputation has also been mentioned by some C2 people when others did this in the past. What is the point of making My Analyst public to others, if it is not trustworthy?

It affects newer people greatly. They come in, and try to figure out which of the systems to try and deal with. Many of the things like system stats are mystifying. But reading what others think (testimonials) is likely very persuasive to them. Then they put REAL money into these system. And you think the # people affected is zero, MK???

I am rather disappointed that it does not bother you in this case that people try to con others. It more seems you are concerned about losing revenue, than dealing with outright manipulation of the site. I think banning TMG systems for a month is a very GOOD idea. They have no other option, as you are the game in town. Banning is what you did to consensus-trading, when he openly admittted on his website to stealing other's signals.

  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Eu New ( C2 Score: 972)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (11:22) 
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In response to post by Index of 6/10/08 (11:09)

I definitely know the chilling effect that requiring credit card info would have C2. That is why I said above I did not...

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I definitely know the chilling effect that requiring credit card info would have C2. That is why I said above I did not think that would happen.
You didn't get it. There aren't specific requirements for registration as credit card or any other changes in registration, but people who paid for C2 service (as subscribers as well as system vendors) already provided verification info in one way or another and C2 has the info. The question is only make it visible. In general you still have the same reviews in my analyst page, but with small icon "unverified/verified C2 member" that's it. It's very similar for subscribers reviews at a system page i.e. "subscriber/autotrader".
Eu


  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (11:52) 
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In response to post by Eu New of 6/10/08 (11:22)

I definitely know the chilling effect that requiring credit card info would have C2. That is why I said above I did n...

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Yes I did get it. To my knowledge, neither of the shill reviewers used credit cards or were subscribers. These were not systems reviews, they were "My Analysts" fake posts. In this situation, it would not have helped.

Based on his past comments, MK is not about to force everyone who posts or uses a My Analyst page to provide CC info.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Eu New ( C2 Score: 972)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (12:01) 
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In response to post by Index of 6/10/08 (11:52)

Yes I did get it. To my knowledge, neither of the shill reviewers used credit cards or were subscribers. These were no...

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Yes I did get it. To my knowledge, neither of the shill reviewers used credit cards or were subscribers.
Exactly. So adding mark "unverified C2 member" to the "analyst" will give some info for thoughts. I.e. the person never used C2 service ;)
These were not systems reviews, they were "My Analysts" fake posts. In this situation, it would not have helped.
See above.
Based on his past comments, MK is not about to force everyone who posts or uses a My Analyst page to provide CC info.
It's not necessary. C2's users (real one) provides the info when they use C2's service. All other might be newbie or fake characters. Newbie will become C2 member with time. Fake character will never be verified member. There isn't any need to force anything or imply strict rules for registration or using "My analysis" page.
Eu
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Username ( C2 Score: 247)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (12:32) 
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In response to post by Matthew Klein of 6/10/08 (9:36)

I'm afraid that we disagree. When I look at those My Analyst pages you criticize, I say to myself, "Gee, the...

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I have to agree with MK on this. I too saw and read the reviews in question before Ross even posted here and I have to say it was pretty obvious that it was a shill review. I mean it doesn't even read like a review, to anyone with half a brain it's clearly an advert. I understand the need that people have to champion the needs of newbies protecting them from all evil-doers but seriously, if you honestly think that someone is going to read that review and on that alone subscribe without doing any other research then quite frankly they are complete idiots and deserve to get their ass handed to them. A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place. The bottom line is the vendor is doing nothing illegal, immoral yes, but illegal no, so we are just going to have to rely on the common good of vendors and the common sense of subscribers to see through it which I think is a fairly safe bet. If you're still really worried about it then simply write your own review on your analyst page and when people go to read that systems comments it will be sitting there right alongside to balance the view; Newbie protected, vendor exposed, everyone happy.
  
 
 

In response to post by Eu New of 6/10/08 (12:01)

Yes I did get it. To my knowledge, neither of the shill reviewers used credit cards or were subscribers.
Exa...

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I like Eu's idea - "unverified member" would help, in my opinion.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Algimantas B. ( C2 Score: 240)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (13:51) 
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In response to post by Eu New of 6/10/08 (12:01)

Yes I did get it. To my knowledge, neither of the shill reviewers used credit cards or were subscribers.
Exa...

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I like Eu's idea too.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (14:00) 
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In response to post by Username of 6/10/08 (12:32)

I have to agree with MK on this. I too saw and read the reviews in question before Ross even posted here and I have to ...

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putting the suggestion of others about verification on the side

This is what I take away from posts between myself & MK/Jon:

1) System (TMG) creates shill reviews

2) I suggest to ban them for a month

3) Ignore this inappropriate behavior, as if newbies fall for this crap, then tough sh** on them.

4) As to C2's reputation, who the hell cares?

5) now, where am I seeing why TMG should not be banned?
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Username ( C2 Score: 247)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (17:53) 
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In response to post by Index of 6/10/08 (14:00)

putting the suggestion of others about verification on the side

This is what I take away from posts between m...

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Sorry, I could have been a bit more eloquent I admit but realistically 3) is simply 'caveat emptor'. Newbies are pretty well covered here already with the welcoming video, tour and numerous learning tools and explanations that the site provides as well as all the legal disclaimers and warnings that pop up as you view each page.

I just don't see C2's reputation suffering and I don't see what banning TMG achieves, it would be a draconian measure, this is free market capitalism not punitive socialism, sure the guy has questionable ethics but he didn't break the law, it was a review on an analyst page not a fake subscriber review. You could argue that Beau promotes his own system via his analyst page but just doesn't use an alias, the reviews are mostly just comparing other systems to his own rather than reviewing the system on it's own merits, so should we then not protect newbies from clearly biased opinion also in case they can't work out he's slating another system to promote his own, or are we going to credit them with some intelligence?
  
 
 

In response to post by Username of 6/10/08 (17:53)

Sorry, I could have been a bit more eloquent I admit but realistically 3) is simply 'caveat emptor'. Newbies are pretty...

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Sure, when it was my vested interest to promote my own system, I think it worked. Really, by reading my analyst page you should quickly see how well versed in trading system development I am. Put a link to wealth-lab.com and it's all in the books. I do have positive system remarks on some of the systems.

It gets to the heart of the analyst pages. I can analyze them very accurately, and I have received quite a few e-mails thanking me for the in-depth analysis there. What that page is is a peek into someone who's done it (traded and developed systems) for a long time.

On that, yes, I would agree to the verified c2 member status. Absolutely. I'm wondering who wouldn't be on that list...

  
 
 

In response to post by Index of 6/09/08 (22:33)


The TMG people are committing fraud on this site.

"Jerry Jenkins" and "George Wilso...

See entire

BTW, Ross, I, too, have asked Matt to confirm a real person named Jerry Jenkins, as well as George Wilson. I know they aren't real people.
  
 
 

In response to post by Financial Scientist of 6/10/08 (18:41)

BTW, Ross, I, too, have asked Matt to confirm a real person named Jerry Jenkins, as well as George Wilson. I know they aren't real people.

They also posted a shill review with an assumed alias when I offered free trials.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (20:30) 
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In response to post by Username of 6/10/08 (17:53)

Sorry, I could have been a bit more eloquent I admit but realistically 3) is simply 'caveat emptor'. Newbies are pretty...

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"I just don't see C2's reputation suffering and I don't see what banning TMG achieves, it would be a draconian measure"

It is called "reputation." I have no idea why this attitude that it does not matter.

1) Let us just pretend, that after the complaints of click fraud against Google and Yahoo, the following announcement was made: We plan no action against those who perpetrated this. As for our new advertisers, we warned you in our disclaimers. So, tough shit.

2) Ebay is a target of shill buyers/sellers. Instead of dealing with people and suspending accounts, EBay decides it is not worth the effort. "Buyers and Sellers are on their own. Our warnings are sufficent to protect EBay's interest. Our shareholders are still getting their quarterly dividends."

TMG out for a month? Draconian? No, well deserved. I am shocked at the attitude exhibited today, frankly.

What is so difficult about doing the right thing?
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Username ( C2 Score: 247)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (23:12) 
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In response to post by Index of 6/10/08 (20:30)

"I just don't see C2's reputation suffering and I don't see what banning TMG achieves, it would be a draconian meas...

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Well I can't answer for MK but my guess is that he would act on any issue once it started to have a material effect on C2's business or earlier if he judged it to have potential for harm.

I would also give some thought to how it would be policed, once you take action against one person you will have set a precedent in a very subjective area, no matter what protection you put in place if someone is determined enough to cheat the system believe me they will still find a way only with ever more underhand and sinister means, at least with the current setup it is clumsy and blatantly obvious when they have malfeased.

And where exactly would you draw the line? Could not anyone writing reviews on an analyst page be accused of influencing newbies rather than educating them, and thereby indirectly determining subscription dollar flow through blatantly biased system bashing masquerading as objective analysis?

I'm not sure we want to go down that road and I suspect the very people you seek to protect are a little less helpless and a lot more streetwise than you give them credit for.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/10/08 (23:21) 
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In response to post by Username of 6/10/08 (23:12)

Well I can't answer for MK but my guess is that he would act on any issue once it started to have a material effect on C...

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"once you take action against one person you will have set a precedent in a very subjective area"

Subjective? They cheat. They get punished. I don't see the problem here

"And where exactly would you draw the line? " Could not anyone writing reviews on an analyst page be accused of influencing newbies rather than educating them:

I don't think this is hard at all. Intentionally cheating the system is easily recognized by most people and most companies. There is a huge difference between what TMG did, and other people giving their opinions. What is hard about this? Almost every web company I know would immediately take action against TMG. Few would struggle with this. Somehow, Collective2 is looking the other way

Now, the precedent is, go ahead and cheat. My Analyst pages are no longer reliable. Do whatever you want, and even if you are caught, so what? Why bother advertising on C2?

Where is the can of worms? In not dealing with cheaters or looking the other way? You need to re-read my last post. This is the only web merchant I know, with this kind of attitude. Most others value their reputation. Here on C2, what the hell... Do it! Just be somewhat less obvious than TMG, and you can probably get away with it.

  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Jules Ellis  New msg
 
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When:6/12/08 (23:10) 
 

In response to post by Index of 6/09/08 (22:33)


The TMG people are committing fraud on this site.

"Jerry Jenkins" and "George Wilso...

See entire

I disagree that Jerry Jenkins did anything wrong; neither legally nor morally. There is no fraud at all. In 2006, before TMG became popular here, I had a brief communication with TMG and he closed his message to me with "Kind regards, Jerry Jenkins (Travis' associate)". I also received several e-mails from Jerry acting as the vendor when I was subscribed to TMG. In my opinion Jerry Jenkins is not a fake person and when you communicate with TMG you will very soon know that he is member of their team (at least this was the case in 2006 and 2007).

So why do you claim that he is a fake person? Why is it fraud when he writes positively about his system? My Analyst pages are meant to express a personal opinion, and his opinion is obviously that TMG is a good system. So what?

With respect to newbies, I don't see how credit card identification would solve this. Most likely a vendor and his associates posess credit cards, and then they can still tout their own system without revealing that they are the vendor. I think it should be sufficient if newbies are warned that a person writing on a My Analyst page might be a vendor, not a subscriber, and that such a person may have personal interests. But then again, isn't that obvious? I remember that when I started trading I became sick of the overload of all the silly warnings that I had to read and sign and click away. Why add another warning, number 63,021? People should be allowed to learn from their mistakes.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/13/08 (0:12) 
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In response to post by Jules Ellis of 6/12/08 (23:10)

I disagree that Jerry Jenkins did anything wrong; neither legally nor morally. There is no fraud at all. In 2006, before...

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Because you are not allowed to review your own system. If you own a system, then it prevents you from adding it to your own My Analyst. This is the text that displays:

The idea behind the My Analyst page is to gather trading systems which interest you, but which aren't your own systems.

So he generates a new alias to get around it. In fact, he generated TWO aliases to do so. Any other questions?
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Jules Ellis  New msg
 
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When:6/13/08 (10:46) 
 

In response to post by Index of 6/13/08 (0:12)

Because you are not allowed to review your own system. If you own a system, then it prevents you from adding it to y...

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I see. So that makes it morally wrong, because it violates the idea of My Analyst pages. Nevertheles, I would rather suggest to change this rule.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:ironcito  New msg
 
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When:6/13/08 (12:44) 
 

In response to post by Jules Ellis of 6/13/08 (10:46)

I see. So that makes it morally wrong, because it violates the idea of My Analyst pages. Nevertheles, I would rather suggest to change this rule.

I think some sort of compromise can be reached that leaves everyone happy. The most common solution to this kind of problem on community-type websites seems to be to somehow rank users.

For example... how long has the user been a member? Is the member also a system seller? If so, how popular is his system? Certainly the opinion of the creator of a top-10 system is valuable, but that also tells us that he is "analyzing" his competition, and could be biased.

Unless I'm doing something wrong, the way to see "my analyst" comments right now is to click one-by-one on each user and go to his analyst page. It would be better to see all the comments for a system in one page. That way, it would be easier to see the bigger picture and the overall opinion of users.

Maybe also include some sort of star-rating system on analyst pages. This would have a dual purpose: first, one could see how highly other users are interested in a system, even if they are not subscribers, and an average could be calculated much like in subscribers ratings. Second, it would serve each user to rank the systems in his analyst pages, for his own reference.

These are just ideas off the top of my head, but they seem to be popular across community based websites, review pages, and so on.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/13/08 (15:21) 
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In response to post by Jules Ellis of 6/13/08 (10:46)

I see. So that makes it morally wrong, because it violates the idea of My Analyst pages. Nevertheles, I would rather suggest to change this rule.

It is morally wrong to kill people. Maybe we should just legalize it, and save taxpayer dollars.

If a site allows people to manipulate it any way they want, and then everyone decides to do that, and it gains a lousy reputation, what kind of future does it have?
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Jules Ellis  New msg
 
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When:6/13/08 (21:48) 
 

In response to post by Index of 6/13/08 (15:21)

It is morally wrong to kill people. Maybe we should just legalize it, and save taxpayer dollars.

If a site a...

See entire

The difference with killing people is that I do not find it morally wrong if people comment on their own system. The only reason why the act of Jerry Jenkins was a little bit wrong in this case is because of what Matthew wrote about his "idea" (not law) about My Analyst Pages. It is wrong to violate rules, but in this case it is an imho rather arbitrary rule that should not exist in the first place. Probably it is just a way to protect MKs revenues from advertisements. He has the right to do that, but it has nothing to do with morale. If MK doesn't care about these revenues, I don't care either.

"If a site allows people to manipulate it any way they want, and then everyone decides to do that,..."

C2 does not allow people to manipulate it any way they want, it merely allows Jerry Jenkins to manipulate it this way. And not everyone decides to do that. Frankly, I see no threats to the reputation of C2 in this. Only threats to the reputation of TMG. C2 is like a newspaper where people among other things can publish their own comments, but C2 is not responsible for the content of these comments.
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Index ( C2 Score: 990)  New msg
 
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When:6/13/08 (22:29) 
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In response to post by Jules Ellis of 6/13/08 (21:48)

The difference with killing people is that I do not find it morally wrong if people comment on their own system....

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Completely and totally disagree. As I said in earlier, when this kind of inappropriate behavior happens, just about every web company I see immediately acts to prevent this. if it is tolerated, it threatens the validity of this site.

The only lesson learned here, is that you can cheat in C2, and it does not matter. It will be tolerated. TMG should be out in the cold, losing revenue.

We had a Mathew Graham, perhaps before you came. He tried to cheat in every possible way. Quite a few said that if the problems weren't fixed, they questioned the reputation of Collective2.

I will not comment further. The defense of this kind of behaviour is mind-boggling. But, whatever...
  
 
Subject:TMG vendor is committing site fraud
Posted by:Jules Ellis  New msg
 
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When:6/14/08 (13:45) 
 

In response to post by Index of 6/13/08 (22:29)

Completely and totally disagree. As I said in earlier, when this kind of inappropriate behavior happens, just about eve...

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I was here way before Matthew Graham, and actually I think I came here shortly after you, in Dec 2005. What Jerry Jenkins did is not at all comparable to what Graham did.
  
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